Dele Momodu: Dr. Abati, you can go ahead with the introduction?

Dr. Reuben Abati: Good evening Bashorun Dele Momodu, Good evening Mr. Femi Falana (SAN) and everybody here. We did it yesterday and today is another day again as we countdown to Bashorun Dele Momodu’s 61st birthday on May 16, we have another guest to help us to focus on key issues of National Progress and development and issues of equity, Justice and fairness in Nigeria.

These are key issues Mr. Femi Falana championed over the last two decade or his entire career.

We all know him for his outspoken voice in the defense of human rights, in the defense of civil liberty and in the fairness of how our leaders’ behave.

He has been associated with many human rights group including the Civil Liberty Organization, Nigeria Labour Congress, National Democratic Coalition, NADECO.

He was at the forefront of the struggle for justice of the 1993 election won by Chief MKO Abiola which was aborted.

We are privileged to have with us a man who has spent almost his entire life in the service of the people .

He has faced a lot of discrimination and oppression particularly from the military and that has continued in other ways under civil rule but he remains committed and not discouraged.

He is an example of someone to emulate, while dictators have not been comfortable with him.

He is well respected in our community as a voice of reason, as a human rights Lawyer, as an Activist and as an intellectual who is always prepared to be called upon to discuss issues which can make life better for all of us.

He is a member of the Nigeria Bar Association, a Senior Advocate of Nigeria, a honorary member of the American Bar and a former President of the West African Bar Association.

He’s a winner of several awards in Leadership and Advocacy and of course, he dabbled into politics to contest under the National Conscience Party to as Governor of Ekiti State.

Of course he did not win but I guess he didn’t have money to share to people and party members and he remained the Chairman of the party till 2011and of course we know him beyond advocacy as an author, a defender of rule of Law.

He is also the father of Folarin Falana, Rapper, Actor, Comedian, artist and Lawyer popularly known as FALZ.

He and his wife founded their own chambers,  known as Falana & Falana Chambers under which auspices he has taken different pro bono cases of human rights, whether it is the Ogoni case which was defended successfully or the case of Journalist Abiri who was in detention for Five years and Femi Falana was able to win that.

Most recently,  he has been involved in the case of Omoyele Sowore and we have been seeing him in court defending human rights.

He is a very prolific writer with four books to his name and he’s a regular commentator on local and international affairs, we are very privileged today to have him here with us and we look forward to an exciting and engaging session.

Dele Momodu: Thank you Dr. Abati, you’re also a lawyer and I really appreciate you and that was a fantastic introduction.  Let me quickly add that I knew and I met this great man in Ife, he was my senior and he had distinguished himself in Ife even before he got to Lagos.

We knew him in Ife as very radical..They were two of them then,  himself and Mr. Dapo Olorunyomi.

Also, when I contested for President in 2011, Mr. Femi Falana was the Chairman of my party and I want to thank him for his spirited effort because maybe I would have been crushed by the system but he made sure everything went smoothly. Thank You Sir.

I will like to fire the first shot. I will want you to recollect  the coup speech and I will like you to comment “Fellow Countrymen, the intervention of the military at the end of 1983 was welcomed by the nation with unprecedented enthusiasm, Nigerians were unified by accepting the intervention and looked forward to progressing for the better but two years later, the fulfillment was not forthcoming. These guys misused power to the  detriment of our national aspirations”.

Dele Momodu: Do you remember that speech and if you do, do you think Nigeria has made appreciable progress since that time? And if so, how do you think we’ve made progress but if not, how do you think we can make progress?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Well, Thank you very much Dele as you’re mostly called in our circle and I thank Dr. Reuben Abati for the introduction and I want to say that I am delighted to appear on this programme.

In response to your first question, I will say Nigeria has not made appreciable progress, things are in fact getting worse by the day because of the fact that there’s grinding poverty all over the country which has recently led to young men and women taking arms against the state and that has made it impossible for our country to make progress.

 People can no longer go to their farms, people can’t do businesses in the country, people can’t move freely in the country. The ruling class representing all the ethnic and religious groups in Nigeria have grounded the country to a halt.

For me, our crisis have been compounded by the uncritical embrace and uncritical acceptance of Neoliberal economy dictated by the IMF and World Bank, which is that you must devalue currency through dollarization.

Secondly, Nigerians have lost hope in the country, because of certain decisions of the government, a lack of sense of belonging and lopsided appointments, so young people are disenchanted generally and they are now embracing all manner of criminal activities.

For me, we cannot continue to lament, instead of agonizing, I will prefer to organize and  this is my recommendation for Nigerians; we can take back the country from political buccaneers and set this country as a proper Country. Thank You

Dele Momodu: How do you take the country back? But before that you said Nigerians have lost hope in the country, have you? are you disenchanted like other Nigerians? if you think Nigeria can be taken back, what are the concrete steps that will make it happen in a place where some people feel superior to other Nigerians? where a Professor who calls himself a Fulani Man is ranting and saying the Governors are talking rubbish that they need to consult them before taking decisions?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: I am perhaps angrier and more disenchanted than majority of Nigerians and that is why I have never hesitated to join issues, I fight them, I heard the statement of p

Professor Usman and for me, I think it’s a very tragic statement

The statement is grounded in morbid ignorance and I have made the point clear on RUGA and other funny things that as far as Nigeria is concerned, under the land use act which was entrenched in the constitution by the military that the entire land of every state is vested in the Governor,  the President can only control lands in the Federal Capital Territory. Outside Abuja, the President can’t decide what happens with the land.

The right is vested in the Governors and therefore I dismiss such provocative statement because they can’t be justified in law and I have advised them to walk the talk by enacting the laws then we would then know who owns the land.

Dele Momodu: Yes, I’m still waiting for your response as to the concrete steps towards reclaiming Nigeria?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: The concrete step is that we have to get organized and I think we saw a bit of that last year when young people decided to say No to Police Brutality. The type of organization demonstrated by young men and women all over the country is a lesson for Nigerians that if properly mobilized, we can take the destiny of the country back, unless we do that, once we leave it to professional politicians, we can’t get it right.

We must also encourage our people to choose between candidates and we must ensure that Political Parties embrace Ideologies since the second republic, it has been difficult to see political parties organized on the basis of political ideology, we must go back to that era and we have the time on our hands.

Dele Momodu: Sir, you entered the University of Ife ahead of me, I came in 1978 and that was the year of the AliMustGo and we have  been organizing since then, Nigeria is getting worse so don’t you think your recommendation of people organizing is like treating Cancer with Paracetamol?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: No, we haven’t organized yet. See what happened some days ago when Governors of the entire South 17 states gathered for the first time to embrace restructuring publicly. For many of them, if was a no go area before but now that they are being faced with critical elements, they are now compelled to say let’s restructure the country, we can put an end to lopsided appointments, we can have a new revenue formula, these were demands that Governors shunned before, now we have to realise that unless we restructure the country vertically and horizontally, there may be no peace and that’s what is going on.

Dele Momodu: Don’t you think we have exhausted all that and are you not underrating President Muhammadu Buhari as a man who is not likely to blink an eye even if people decide to sleep on the street for the next two years?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Dele, once you believe that you have a headmaster in Abuja that our Governors run to then that might be difficult but I talk of concrete experience and I will give you some instances; there was a time the Federal Government went to Court to fight the resource control via the Supreme Court and the Federal Government won and it was a pyrrhic victory to say the resources on the offshore will be owned by the Federal Government and after the victory, the Niger Delta people decided we are going to have resource control whether the people in Abuja liked it or not and those  actions in the Niger Delta forced the Olusegun Obasanjo administration to rush a bill to the National Assembly abolishing the onshore and offshore dichotomy.

Number 2, the Federal Government criticized Governor Akeredolu when he gave a quit Notice to herders in Ondo State, you either register or you quit, the Presidency roared like a lion and I came out to warn the Presidency to be cautioned, stop giving the wrong impression, by virtue of Forestry Law of Ondo State, section 42 that anyone who trespasses on Government Reserve will be tried and if convicted liable to five years imprisonment, no fine, this forced the Federal Government later to announce that Governors are responsible for control of the forests in their states.. The third one, couple of years ago, Governors in the South West decided to have Amotekun as a way of responding to the mindless killing and raping of our people by criminal elements parading themselves as herders and what happened, the Federal Government came out as usual to say they can’t do it.

Again, I came up to say we have the Hisbah police in the NorthWest and we have the Civilian JTF in the North East, how can you say that other regions can’t have their own security outfits? and it was at that stage that the Federal Government agreed, the Eastern Governors have met to have  their own security network as well, the point I am making therefore is that the struggle for restructuring and freedom is like the fight for independence, nobody will give it on a platter of gold, you have to struggle and fight for it.

Dele, from 1999 till now, not less than 20 cases have been won against the Federal Government, either on Land, Inland Waterways, Local Government funds, Entertainment levies, etc. the point I am making is that we can’t fold our arms and let the Federal Government or powers in Abuja stop us from developing our region.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: Well, there’s a question I picked from here that the Yoruba people have always been agitating and will they be agitators forever?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: On the contrary, we struggle to continue to win our battles. The situation I’m telling you would have been much worse if these battles have not been put up.

As a matter of fact, some of the state structures would have collapsed, if not for the fight, the state wouldn’t have been able to survive economically so the point I’m making is that the battles we’ve put on in the past and the battle for the expansion of democracy which is at stake now must not be undermined, we must tell dictators they don’t have space here any longer. We must win this battle

Dele Momodu: Someone is telling me that Yes, we have been winning but it is too small and too little that while we’re busy blowing grammar here, stack illiterates are busy killing and maiming that so can we legislate against killing? Can the court stop herdsmen from killing? There are cases you can’t win in court that bothers on lives.

Mr. Femi Falana (SAN): I get the point and I made the point that our people are angry because they’re frustrated and disenchanted but my own position is if we are organized and we face the problems scientifically, if we face the problems where they are located, we will record success. We have to keep fighting till we get the democracy we desire.

Considering security, our cities need CCTVs, we need to have tracking devices to track criminal elements, and we need to have drones acquired by our State Governments to put an end to kidnapping. when the situation of Ibarapa became serious, I and my comrade, Femi Aborishade who happener to be from that region discussed and decided to go to court and sue the Oyo State Government and Federal Government and pray the court to compel them to increase security in that part of the state.

Even though the case is still in court, that has been done and it has reduced the number of attacks but we are also suggesting to the people on ground on how to defend themselves, investigations also have to be carried out on brutal killings of Dr. Aborishade, now I can say it here that the man was assassinated by an 80 year old man, a politician, we are writing to the Attorney General of Oyo State to file a case to have the suspect prosecuted.

We are not simply folding our arms and in cases where we can’t use the local courts, we use the ECOWAS court in Abuja so the point I’m making is that we need to get organized, we need to make demands of our Government, we need to hold our Government accountable so that the security of our people can be assured.

Dele Momodu: Sir, I have another question here, this person is speaking about the Amotekun you mentioned.The person is saying Amotekun is not strong enough that when they arrested herdsmen and they handed them over to the police that they are usually released or they say there is an order from somewhere?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Again, I continue to insist that we must get our Governors to be up and doing, every Governor in Nigeria is responsible for the security of the State, they have security councils headed by the Governor. The point I’m making and I’ve suggested to our Governor is of course, they won’t give me a gun but if you apply for a license to bear weapons in Lagos or Ife, they will give you because you’re a responsible man, If you can get the license, I have challenged our Governors that why can’t they apply for license for 10, 000 plus people to protect the state.

If they’re denied, can they let me know and we will win the case in court, the point I’m making is that the Amotekun serving within what they have in their capacity are doing very well, all that is left is for our Governors to take necessary measures to arm them and let us know who will say they should face AK-47 with bear hands if that isn’t suicide.

Dele Momodu: Thank You Sir, what is your attitude to self-defense? What does the law say about self defence and what’s your response to the Eastern Security Network?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: By virtue of section 33 of the constitution, the right to life is guaranteed but it’s also there that if you use force to deal with anybody who wants to take your life and property, it can’t be counted an offence.

Both the penal code and criminal code both recognize the right to self-defense, Yes. That is the law. With respect to the Eastern Security Network, I’ve commended them just like I did to the Amotekun initiative. Abuja can no longer tell States not to defend their people since it is obvious the Police cannot cope with respect to maintaining internal security in our country.

Dele Momodu: The Eastern Security Network is not owned by Government, It’s a private initiative…

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: No, you see when you Government  has shown incompetence I’m defending the people, once the government has shown that it is insensitive to the yearnings of the Nigerian people, it will be extremely difficult to outlaw private initiative and I have repeated made the point that the Government have a duty to engage IPOB another aggrieved people because if you’re engaging with bandit, it’s illogical and irresponsible not to engage other forces that embrace arms in resolving the crisis facing the Nigeria people.

Dele Momodu: Now, do you think we need an amendment of the 1999 constitution or wholesome remaking of the constitution?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: I have made the point, we have no constitution now,what our court erroneously calls the 1999 constitution is decree 24 of 1999, it’s decree and that is why section 120 refers to the President as the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, the head of State  so we need to write a constitution of the Nigerian people if we want to keep the country together.

Dele Momodu: Okay, Sir, do Nigerian Ethnic Nationalities have right to self-determination? a lot of people are talking about referendum, do you support a referendum seeing there’s no general consensus on this issues?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: I have made the point that by the virtue of article 20 of the African Charter of People tribe, peoples of Africa have the right to self-determination and as a democrat, I want to see a situation where referenda are conducted so that you know feelings of people. The people of Scotland have held like two referenda and they haven’t given up, in Canada too so if they decide that so be it but to think we will continue with lopsided appointments, centralization of power in the centre without restructuring, you are inviting anarchy and that is why I continue to blame the authorities in Nigeria for pushing Nigerians to asking for their own republics so those who want a country of their own will have to conduct a referendum to decide if they want to remain in the entity called Nigeria or go on their own.

Dele Momodu: What are the processes and procedures?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: The processes are not recognized by the constitution, the referendum as highlighted in the constitution is limited to state creation and Local Government creation but if you want to meet the need of the people, there are ways to do that In this age of internet, to devise means of what our people want.

Dele Momodu: So, therefore, is referendum not a road close?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: No, it’s an extra constitutional matter, I’ve made it clear to you that the drafters of the constitution never envisaged that Nigerians are going to be demanding separations if you’re making the demand, you can’t be looking for the solution in the constitutions so it’s not a road close if you make the struggle sufficiently.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: Someone is asking that is it not contradictory that since you agreed there’s no constitution and yet, we can’t change what one or two people sat in a room under the military to compose?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: No, it went one or two people. They had a Committee headed by the late justice Nicki Tobi that recommended this constitution to the military, I don’t see a contradiction there, what I’m saying is that it is a decree imposed on us and our courts call it constitution and there are limitations in it.

 Dele Momodu: Now, Pa Ayo Adebanjo, Dr. Banji Akintoye and many others are insisting there should not be elections until these issues are resolved,  what will be your attitude to a call for election boycott?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: What I said elsewhere is that scientifically with the way things are going in the country, I do not see possibility of holding an election in 2023, and Nigerians may have forgotten that in 2015, the election was postponed for 6 weeks because about 14 local Government have been captured by insurgents.  Today, most of the Local Governments in Borno State, some in Yobe State, some in Niger and some other parts have been captured. Today, there’s full scale war going on in the south east, abductions in the southwest, and you know during elections, some people have registered outside their place of work who may want to go home and will be then impossible unless the security situation is confronted and addressed in a responsible way so those calling that these situations are confronted first before elections are held are right, you can’t rubbish their positions.

Dele Momodu: Sir, someone is asking that don’t you think we will play into the hands of those who don’t want to quit power if you say there will be no election?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: I am not saying there should be no election, I’m saying I don’t see possibility of holding elections if the security situation is not addressed and under the constitution, you can adjust for six months but you can’t adjust it more than six months and that’s what they have put in their constitution.

Dele Momodu: What then happens if Buhari declares a State of Emergency?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: No, you see at that stage, you have to look for solutions outside the constitution because the constitution never envisage that the country will not be able to transit, that is why I’m saying you need to look for solutions outside the constitution so it won’t become a military dictatorship.

Dele Momodu: If this crisis are not resolved, does Buhari have the legal chance of elongating his tenure in power?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: No, he can’t declare a state of Emergency outside section 305 of the constitution, it’s limited, and he cannot.

Dele Momodu: But if it so happen…

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Then the Nigerian people will have to take their political destiny in their hands, if you have someone whose tenure of office has expired, he cannot continue to govern you.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: How do you then confront someone who has the power?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Dele, you were part of what we did against the military even when they rolled out the tanks, they just had to go. What I’m saying is to avoid anarchy, we have to campaign for speedy resolution of the security crisis.

Dele Momodu: Sir, Abacha didn’t leave office on his own convictions, why are you convinced anybody will leave the office voluntarily when he has all the provisions to remain in power? If there’s no election, you can’t force him

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Now, the power of the people can force a dictator out of power and that is going on in different part of the world. Don’t underrate the capacity of Nigerians when provoked to react.

Dele Momodu: Someone is asking why don’t you want to be part of the Yoruba Liberation movement?

Mr. Femi Falana (SAN): No, it is very difficult for me because I’m engaged in other battles outside the Yoruba territory, I am the leading counsel of the people of Western Sahara, they’re fighting the colonization of their territory by Morocco, I’m involved in the struggle of Madika people in Liberia, I’m involved in the people of Southern Cameroon,  many more but let me also tell you so you know where I’m coming from, I’m involved in the struggle of the masses of Yoruba people, I am also supporting the young lawyer Hussein Afolabi challenging the killing of four young people in Ogbomoso during the EndSARS protest, etc. so I am involved in the daily struggle of our people but until I conclude some of these struggles, it will be difficult to limit myself so people have to understand my point that the totality of my life is dedicated to justice.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: Thank you Sir. Do you think the Igbo still have a stake in Nigeria?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: For me, every part of Nigeria has a stake in Nigeria and we have to struggle to ensure that every part of Nigeria is represented. There is a Federal character act that provides for equitable distribution of political post and amenities, now we are getting our colleagues to challenge some of these appointments so we can’t justify appointing people from one part of the country with other part being excluded.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: What’s your reaction to the shoot at sight order?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: which one now?

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: The one President has asked that Bandits should be shot out?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: You see, when President Olusegun Obasanjo gave a similar order in Lagos, we said it was not right, you’re supposed to arrest criminal elements and trial them…

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: Now, someone is asking that under the President Goodluck Jonathan, many of you went to protests, is it that President Buhari hasn’t seen enough that you’re not on the street?

Mr. Femi Falana (SAN): No, we have been on the street, it’s a matter of if Nigerians are ready to join us, you can google “Falana demonstrated against insecurity”, we did last year and we are currently mobilizing one for May 29th, we are having a major protest against insecurity and i hope those asking the question will join us wherever they are.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: The other question is the issue of Boko Haram, do you agree with those who think the President is very enthusiastic about waging war against people he considers his kinsmen?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: I’m not sure the president is enthusiastic about anything, whether you’re talking about waging war against economic saboteurs or whatever, it’s the same nonchalant attitude. Since the Boko Haram crisis started in 2009, successive regimes have failed to address the terror, the armed forces are not equipped, the troops are not motivated and that’s why we still have this problem. For President Buhari, he only relies on briefing from the Army chiefs unlike President who should be paying unscheduled visits to battle front to address and motivate the soldiers and that’s why it appears to be what it is.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: Now, the vice president is your friend and colleague, do you think if he was more empowered, the Buhari Government would have been more successful?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Well, I’m a lawyer and I deal with evidence, I don’t engage in speculations, so I don’t want to show preference, I see a Government as a government and I’m very reluctant to single out anybody in that government so for me, I want to talk about the Buhari administration.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: The question is based on the fact that there was a stack difference when the President was away and the Vice President was able to act, the question is coming from someone who thinks the President is tired and needs to be reenergized and he has people that can help but they are not being used and starting from the VP…

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Well, that is true that in 2017 when the Vice President acted for the president, there were movements but for me, yes the entire Government is run on neoliberal policy but for me, I see the government as one and the same, programmes that promote devaluation of currency is what the Government promotes. I want to see what the Government represents without preferences so that we do not leave the basis of our crisis.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: Sir, if you were to meet President Buhari today and you’re able to influence him, what are the concrete steps you think he should take immediately?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: I had already call on the National Assembly to move to impeach the president so if I had my word, I will tell the President to resign, he’s overwhelmed already so I will advise him to resign.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: Recently, you said Nigeria is at war, what’s your plan B?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: My plan B is to stay in the country and fight it out, fight for justice, fight for fair play, fight for equitable distribution so that every Nigerian can have a sense of belonging.

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: On a pathing note, who do you feel seeing that your Son FALZ is taking the struggle forward?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Chuckles** I believe he’s a product of his environment and it was not easy for the family to let him venture into entertainment. As a lawyer, he has joined us in the chambers and he was already doing well, finding his feet in the legal profession and he just woke up one day and said he’s finding his path elsewhere apart from Law, of course,  for me, I wished him well, it took my wife some time to appreciate what the young man wanted to do so I said let’s wish him well, if he succeeds so be it but if he doesn’t,  he will find his way back to the office, please leave him alone and he hasn’t disappointed us so we have to urge him to show more interest in the affairs of the country to make his work relevant

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: Finally, I know that your spiritual warrior apart from being a Lawyer, how spiritual are you or you depend on her for fortification?

Mr. Femi Falana SAN: Chuckles**, Well, you know that I attended the Sacred Heart Catholic Seminary Akure, Ondo state but as we say in the seminary that many are called but few are chosen to be priests so i wasn’t cut out to be a reverend father but I still have a good number of my friends in the priesthood. I always believe that religion should be a private affair moreso the ruling class in our country have used religion to divide our people but since you’ve mentioned my wife, she’s our spiritual warrior and mobilizes the family to be prayerful, I won’t go beyond that. Thank you very much

Chief Dr. Dele Momodu: Dr. Reuben Abati should be waiting to round it up for us…

Dr. Reuben Abati: Thank you very much Bashorun Dele Momodu, Thank you very much Mr. Femi Falana (SAN), This has been a very engaging session and in the last one and half our many questions were raised and I’ve picked from the participants comments that the issues raised were good ones, issues of great concern and there are consensus of takeaways.

 

LET US SIT, NEGOTIATE AND DISSOLVE NIGERIA PEACEFULLY – PROF BANJI AKINTOYE

MOMODU: You are nearer 90 than 80, why are you still in the struggle… why are you still in the trenches

Thank you very much…it is a life orientation. I cannot see evil and just pass over it. I cannot see people suffering and just ignore them. I cannot hear noise of agony and pain and behave as if I’m not hearing. I was born and raised like that and then I had because my father who was a warrior most of his life spent most of his life defending his own little kingdom in Ekiti. He was famous for one saying that he had Yoruba “ara eni nikan ko tosin” meaning oneself is too little to serve, and then part of then ask the question, does any star in the sky shine or make light for itself alone. That is it. I was raised in the shadow of that kind of thing. My grandfather died about seven years before I was born, but his aura, his effulgence filled our lives because he was a great servant of his people. And then, I went to the university college. I was not particularly interested in partisan politics as a young man. When I got to Ibadan, I became clearly more aware of a man called Chief Obafemi Awolowo, who was the premier of our region, and so in 1959, I and a few others joined together to create the action Group Students Association and that brought us to the presence of Chief Awolowo because as leaders of the association, we were admitted to the membership of regional executive of the Action Group. And then, I graduated and went to Ado Ekiti to teach at Christ School, and I found out that my home town, Ado Ekiti, was strongly another party, the NCNC, and not Action Group. So my wife and I who have educated ourselves in Action Group tenets as members of AG Students Association in Ibadan, went to work, and within a short time, we converted the whole of Ado Ekiti to a roaring city for Action Group.

So we revived the Action Group Youth Association in the height of the crisis in the Western Region in 1962 – 66, and I became the Vice President of the revived AGYA with Chief Ayo Fasanmi as our President, and we did a whole lot of things in the Western Region in those three years while I was still a graduate student in Ibadan. And with the coup of 1966, I was able to go back to my studies, and completed my studies. Then Chief Awolowo was released, and I was one of the first persons to welcome him back. And then he served in the Gowon government and came back, and then involved in serious politics because he came to Ife, and told us ‘Nigerians have seen evil days, we, Nigerians have killed millions of our own countrymen but Nigeria can start a new, and I propose that you come and join me in making Nigeria start anew. That was how we founded the Unity Party of Nigerian. Most of the intellectual work of the UPN was done in the campus of Obafemi Awolowo University, and I became chairman of some of the committees that were writing position papers for the party, and ultimately, I wrote the manifesto of the party. And without my asking for it, I was nominated to contest election for the senate, and I won and became a senator. I saw on the floor of the senate Nigeria being very systematically torn apart by greed and corruption. I knew we were in very bad times, I knew we were in very bad times. And I began to fear for the future of our country because under Chief Awolowo when we were establishing our party, there was a great deal of enthusiasm for Nigeria, and I was one of the makers of that enthusiasm at least on the campus of Obafemi Awolowo University. We, in Ife used to brag that what we were trying to do under Chief Awolowo’s leadership was to build Nigeria to become the black man’s world power of modern times. We knew we could do it.

He told us “Gentlemen, if we will win this election and be allowed to serve Nigeria, you must all be prepared to work until it is hurts. We were ready to work until it hurts, until Nigeria became a great country, but it didn’t happen, and Nigeria went on after that; decade after decade, military rule interspersed here and there by a few years of civilian rule until the disaster of the Abacha regime came, and a large number of our people began to flee abroad. I had left before then because I was sad, and didn’t want to see Nigeria die. I used to say to my friends that I love Nigeria so much to see her die in my presence. I don’t want her to die in my presence. I left in 1990. The huge crisis started in 1993. It’s a miracle Nigeria survived it. And then at the end of it all, somebody had the temerity to stamp on Nigeria a constitution that arrogate almost all the powers in the country to the central government. And that made it possible for extinct group that was hunting for it to become the leader of Nigeria, to become the dictator to all Nigerians and ultimately to think of conquering the rest of us by sending supposed ethnic herdsmen. We have always had herdsmen. They have come usually quietly raising their cattle. When I was a little child, we use to play with the cattle that the herdsmen were rearing along the road to our farm. The herdsman was usually a nice man. He would say ‘you small boys, if the cow gets angry and begin to chase you, you cannot run as fast as the cow, and the cow is going to run over you, so you better run and go to your father’s farm’. That was exactly the kind of person the herdsman was. He was not a violent person. He was a kind man. Not a destructive person, but the ones that have been sent since 2014 has been deliberately indoctrinated and asked to go and hurt the people of Nigeria. As servants of a philosophy that says ‘we Fulani; Allah has given us Nigeria and all of Nigeria, and it is our duty to drag the people off their land and take their land. People call them herdsmen, but when I came and heard people in Afenifere meetings talking endlessly about these menace, I said we need to find out what is happening. We don’t know exactly what is happening. I was asked if I could do a research on it, and I said ‘yes I can’. I did the research and wrote a paper of 36 pages on the crisis in Yoruba Southwest. I went all over the country to see what was happening, and then some other countries, inside and outside Nigeria. I spoke to Fulani folks in places like Yewa in Yorubaland; places like Upper Senegal and the Gambia etc. in West Africa. I found the following:

As of that point, what was needed was government to help these poor Fulani folks, who were having a hard time as a result of drought, but government did not do that neither did the regions and states of the north step in to help them. On the contrary, what then happen? This is where the crisis is. What then happened was some eminent persons of the Fulani political elites decided that this was an opportunity, to use this terrible situation among the Fulani herdsmen, to unleash them as warriors against the rest of Nigeria. That was where the trouble started. They were heavily indoctrinated; heavily indoctrinated to believe that Allah has given Nigeria to the Fulani, and all that the Fulani needed to do was to seize the land by force. That’s what we have been witnessing. One Fulani wrote in January 2014, and I quote “In 1960, Allah through the British, gave us Nigeria to rule, and to do as we please. We have been doing that since 1960, and we intend to continue. And if anybody tries to stop us, we shall kill, maim and destroy, and turn Nigeria into the bloodiest war zones in Africa”. That’s what they are doing, and that’s what they are still claiming, and that’s what they are still trying to achieve. I was on the delegation that visited Benue governor when Fulani herdsmen killed a large number of people on January 1, 2018. They sent us a letter, saying “Mr. Governor, I see that you and your people are mourning, and carrying out mass burials. What has happened to you is a little of what is coming to you. And your offence to us, before us is that the ethnic groups in your state believe that the land on which they have live for a thousand years is theirs because they have lived on it for thousands of years; that the land is not theirs; it belong to us the Fulani; Allah has given it to us, and we are going to take it by force. We have accumulated the money and weapons for the battle, and we are ready to keep fighting for hundreds of years if that’s what it would take. And we are not talking of the ethnic groups in your state alone, we are talking about all the ethnic groups in Nigeria; the Yoruba, Igbo, Kanuri etc, and nothing can stop us. And if you think your Federal Government can defend you, you are deceiving yourself.

That is the truth of the matter. The people who started the trouble, carried out the indoctrination were financing the terrorists and call it herdsmen vs farmers; that is not true. A blatant lie to hide a very terrible truth. So, when I came back to Nigeria after 25 years. I never knew I was going to come back. When I came back in 2015, Chief Fasoranti asked me to write a report. I did a research and wrote a report. I wasn’t going to do anything more than write a report, and I went about giving lectures, mostly to tell the yoruba people that historically you are a great nation; not inferior to any nation in Europe because at a time European nation was not urbanised, you were urbanised. You were not a small, but great people. that was the kind of lecture I was giving. I guess that was what attracted a crowd of young men and women who elected Prof Akintoye as leader. I accepted to serve with them and for them, because I had by then become very painfully aware about what was happening to our people. Our youths were going through total disaster. Go to the university, polytechnic or university, pass out with degrees, sometimes very good degrees, and then walk around for years up to 8 years without any work. And our young people were fleeing abroad, many were going into drug abuse, crimes, cults etc. Many impatient ones believe they can walk across the Sahara Desert to North Africa, some swim across the Mediterranean Sea to go to Northern Europe, and many of them were dying in droves in the desert. At that point, I couldn’t take it any more. That’s when I came to the conclusion that what I have been helping people to advocate, which is restructuring Nigeria, was no longer enough. What was needed in the interest of humanity was that Yoruba people should establish their self determination peacefully, and get out of Nigeria and go and take care of themselves the way they knowhow to build. The Yoruba people are essentially a civilization building people.

MOMODU: Thanks for that serious summary of what has led you to your mindset. Would it be right to say you have totally, absolutely given up on Nigeria as a nation

AKINTOYE: Nigeria is managing its affairs in a totally disastrous and destructive manner, and there is no way a country that is being managed like that can survive. Nigeria is one of the most endowed areas. For many decades, Nigeria has been one of the leading producers of petroleum in the world. Nigeria has a whole lot of other minerals, agricultural resources that I know, highly educated people, but the resources are being so poorly managed, with impunity and lack of ideas with corruption and so on that Nigeria has gone steadily down. Now, Nigeria has become home to extreme poverty.

One United Nations agency said that the worse place for a child to be born is Nigeria. The worse place for a woman to get pregnant and try to have a baby in the world is Nigeria. The worse place to do business in Africa is Nigeria because the rules and impunity and degradation of everything make orderly business impossible. So Nigeria has become the home of charlatans and business fraud. No country can live like this. A United Nations of two or three years ago said Nigeria is one of the poorest countries of the world, and many people are predicting  that by 2030, not less than 50 per cent of the poorest people will be Nigerians. It is not a question of giving up on Nigeria, it is accepting the reality and the truth. The truth is that nigeria has ceased to be a viable country in the world, and I didn’t want it so. I thought it would be the duty of us all to try to dissolve Nigeria peacefully, and that is why I have championed the cause of Yoruba self determination to be achieved peacefully, and in a law abiding manner. Because we Yoruba are a great nation, a civilised nation, and we must not be contributing to chaos. We don’t Nigeria to break up in chaos because that will lead to a lot of pains and sufferings for a lot of people all over West Africa. The answer is let us dissolve this thing peacefully. We have tried, we have failed. Let us accept that we have failed. Let us sit down and negotiate and dissolve it peacefully. That is my position.

MOMODU: I have been asked by several international organisations, diplomats who reads what we write. The question they all ask is, is it possible for Nigeria to break up peacefully. Kindly tell us how you think those who are presently profiting from the madness going on in Nigeria would ever allow Nigeria to break up peacefully. In a situation where that is not possible, what are the options before the Yoruba nation

AKINTOYE:The realities of the situation will force them to accept them. It is the solution. the country is going steadily down all the time. That is the truth. They may be stubborn now, but in a few months time and things go on the way they are going now, more and more of them will accept that it would be sensible to break up. One Alhaji, chairman of an organisation called Kaduna Dialogue Group, said even an angel from heaven cannot unite Nigeria anymore. It is better to break into smaller, smaller countries in the interest of humanity, in the interest of relations; in the interest of the future and our children. And if we do not do it now, he said, future generation will be cursing us. It is not just southerners and middle belters who believe this, many people in the north are gradually began to believe. And a group of youth organisations in the north is now clearly demanding dissolution of Nigeria so that Arewa can become a separate and independent country in the world. So it is not as solid as people may think. The little solidity is softened and weakened down day by day. We have reached a situation where the government of Nigeria announces that it is not their duty to confront banditry and raping and kidnap. Those things are not federal crimes, they say. And the Police are not obliged to handle them. That is Nigeria Federal Government saying that. There is no centre anymore. If people think that those who are holding on to power now will be in a position to hold on to it in some months, they are deceiving themselves. Nigeria is self-destruct, that is all. And those who are in charge of it will learn the truth and accept the truth by and by. And I predict they will do so very soon.

MOMODU: Just yesterday, there was another national security meeting in Abuja, and some of those who attended were President Muhammadu Buhari, Ibrahim Gambari, Abubakar Malami, Babagana Mungono, Bashir Salir Magashi, Ibrahim Attahiru, Awwal Zubairu, Usman Alkali Baba, Yusuf Magaji Bichi, Ahmed Rufai Abubakar. I saw the vice president in a few of the pictures, I don’t know if anybody from the southeast or south south was at that meeting.

AKINTOYE: There was none!

MOMODU: The communique issued said there would be new security measures for southeast and southsouth, and they were not represented. Chief MKO Abiola used to say you can’t shave a man’s hair in his absence. So why do you think the southeast and south south, where we don’t have terrorist, have become more of security concern than the places where the terrorists and bandits reside

AKINTOYE: You have said it yourself. From your list it is all northerners with the exception of the vice president. Nobody from the southeast, nobody from the southsouth, and yet people presume to have a Nigeria security council. No, it is no longer there; we must stop deceiving ourselves. We, the educated people of Nigeria need to sit down and tell ourselves that what we are doing essentially with Nigeria these days is romancing a corpse. There is nothing left. We need to do our people the duty of seeking substance, reality rather than talking of the things that have passed that we are still rejoicing about. There is no Nigeria any more. That is the truth of the matter. By and by, sooner than later, even the people who are in control now will give up. They will tell themselves it cannot be done.

MOMODU: We know it’s the wish of many people agitating for the Biafran nation, Yoruba nation etc that something will happen and happen very quickly. If by 2023, and Buhari decides to hand over to the next government whether to someone from north or wherever. The  two major parties are already thinking of zoning the presidency to the north (east or west).What do you think those who believe in your cause will do. I know that Baba Ayo Adebanjo has said that no election, but how do you enforce that? 2. If majority of Yoruba people decides to go for election, what would be your position.

AKINTOYE: The more we hold elections under the 1999 constitution, the more we prolong our sufferings, our pains. The Fulani marauders, terrorists are telling us that they are in the southern Nigeria; they are in Yorubaland, Igboland, Ijawland, and everywhere as Nigerians, and after the constitution of Nigeria, they are free to be everywhere. So the more we hold elections under the 1999 constitution, they moe we prolong our sufferings. I am absolutely confident that if we came to a referandum or some sort of voting, the Yoruba people will say in a very large majority that they don’t want election in their part of Nigeria. It’s a simple as that. The east are saying the same so is the middle belt. The south and the middle belt account for three quarters of the population. This is not a question of a minority or small Igbo or Yoruba minority. And that’s a very serious matter.

MOMODU: The issue of referendum was raised when I interviewed Mazi Nnamdi Kanu. Who will conduct the referendum?

AKINTOYE: In our kind of situation, the most sensible thing is to resort to what many other nationalities have resorted to. There are nationalities that have tried to conduct their own referendum, like the Catalonians in Spain, the Scots in Britain. In our own situation, we think it would be better to persuade the United Nations to come and run our referendum the way they did it in Sudan. I believe we can get that done.

MOMODU: Do you think the UN can put pressure on a government as obstinate as the type you have in most parts of Africa including Nigeria

AKINTOYE: It is the pressure from three quarters  of the country that will put the pressure on the UN to intervene. The people running the country may not want it, but the 2/3 will together put such amount of pressure in the world that a lot of people will agree with them and that will translate to a vote in the UN that will authorise the UN to intervene in the Nigerian situation.

MOMODU: I was involved in the June 12, and I was relatively close to Chief Abiola. This was how we felt that the international community will come to the rescue of Nigeria, help to validate the best election in Nigeria, but it never happened. So where are you getting the confidence that the international community that does not consider Nigeria a priority right now, as our oil is becoming ‘go and drink it if you wish’

AKINTOYE: You may be right in saying that they do not consider Nigeria a priority, but the time will come when they will consider Nigeria a priority, I assure you.

MOMODU: May be there are things you may not wish to say in the open forum. But I will like you to tell us the steps and procedures towards self determination.

AKINTOYE: Procedures that we should expect are in the hands of critically important members of the security council in this matter. I will also be going to court over some parts of the struggle. All put together to create a situation in which there will be no doubt that the UN need to intervene. The UN doesn’t choose to intervene in any situation on its own, it is the situation that pressurises the UN to intervene anyway. So we are going to use that knowledge very much

MOMODU: I’m sure you are aware that some Yoruba politicians are already warming up for the next election. Would it be correct to say…

AKINTOYE: Yes, they are warming up for the next election, and there is nothing evil in that, but they will soon discover that they are going to hit a rock along the way

MOMODU: Do you have a fall back option apart from the Yoruba nation option

AKINTOYE: No, I cannot think about another option. Yoruba must have their own country in the interest of humanity, so that they can bring development, prosperity and happiness back to their people. I believe it is the same type of thinking among the Igbo, and among the middle belt and peoples of the south south. No, there is no conceivable option that will satisfy the humanity that we are seeking to serve

MOMODU: Theoretically, what if you were to look at a Yoruba leader either in Nigeria or Yoruba nation, what criteria will you be looking at in arriving at the leader to lead the Yoruba nation.

AKINTOYE: The kind of leader that will lead the Yoruba nation out of the degradation and destruction of Nigeria back to a modern progressives and prosperous country; the leadership will emerge. The leadership is emerging, and it is not human beings that will project this one or that one will lead us. The leadership will arrive. It is inevitable. it is the way history operates. There is no other way. The right kind of leader will emerge.

MOMODU; Many of those who oppose Yoruba nation are very quick to talk about the lack of unity among Yoruba people. What do you say to that

AKINTOYE: I don’t know what they mean when they say lack of unity, what they Yoruba demonstrates is when there is an issue, there are many Yoruba who wants to venture their own opinion; that does not represent disunity. This is the tenets upon which thenYoruba nation was created, that even the young person and the old person have their right to contribute their own little wisdom or opinion. The fact that they are doing that now does not mean they are not united, it means they are doing what they are traditionally capable of doing. Or perhaps you don’t know that for many millennials, the Yoruba have been a very democratic people; in all parts of the world. In monarchical governmentts, the king is automatically succeeded by his son, preferably the first son; the Yoruba rejected that from the beginning. They agree that the family is going to rule us, but we the people will select from among you who will rule. That is the only one in the world, and chieftaincy titles are domiciled in every family; all members of the linage, including the son of the man who just died, has a right to the title. There will be wrangling, partisan consultation and family meetings until someone is decided on. That is the Yoruba way; we are very democratic. Nobody can expect us now to stop being democratic. People don’t know some things about Chief Awolowo other than his good governance approach. Know that Awolowo once said that “we have no business trying to destroy the opposition; all we want to do is win the election. For democracy to be strong in our land, we must make sure that the opposition is strong so that we in government will be afraid of them.” I don’t know any African man who will say a thing like that; it is only a Yoruba man that will say a thing like that. We are not trying to destroy the opposition. For democracy to remain strong, we must keep the opposition strong so that we in the government will be afraid of them. We are not disunited. Even Adedibu never attempted to use his charismatic influence to rig election in Ibadan. Every voice raised will be contended, and that does not mean they are not united.

In the 1850s, one American missionary travelled all over Yoruba land for four years. In the book that she wrote, and published in 1858, she said: Among us white people, what we consider as the best design of governance is the division of power, the balance of power in order to ensure that no person will abuse power. We Europeans think that we started to do this in 1225 under King John at the Magna Carta. But now, I have travelled in the land of this Yoruba people for four years, and I have discovered to my surprise that this people have mastered the principle and the practice of balance of power, high layered that we Europeans, and better than we Europeans. Long before Magna Carta; that’s who we are. We are a rigorous and fundamentally democratic. The democracy does not mean disunity.

MOMODU: The Yoruba has also been accused of timidity bordering on we are not ready to fight for our rights. In one of D. O. Fugunwa’s books, he wrote that You can be wise, and still not be wise. Can you agree that there is ambiguity about the Yoruba way of doing things

AKINTOYE: No, the Yoruba accept the limitation of wisdom. No matter how experience, wise or philosophical you are, nobody has a total control of wisdom. So there is an element of foolishness in everybody. The Yoruba compendium of knowledge called ‘Orifa’ says that we are all strong, we are also all weak. That is the nature of man. Some people are wiser that others but nobody is ‘wiseless’ or nobody is all wise. That’s what Fagunwa was saying there. The Yoruba admits that in their conduct, and that leads to a great deal of humility so that the Yoruba man who is very solid in the knowledge of the law and tradition of the people is often a very humble person. Because he knows that the knowledge is not complete. Orunmila is quoted in one place ‘people think that I am the wise one, but not really. Yes, I have some amount of wisdom, but there are certain types of wisdom I don’t have but the almighty Olodunmare is the only one who has all wisdom.

MOMODU: Some people still insist that it is going to be almost impossible to achieve what you want to achieve without a fight. How far are you willing to go?

AKINTOYE: Whether there will be a fight or not will depend on those ruling Nigeria, not on Yoruba people. If it comes to that, the Yoruba people will be ready. I won’t say more than that.

MOMODU: We hear of bandits all over Yoruba land, do you think governors are doing enough to safeguard the lives of Yoruba people?

AKINTOYE: The governors are handicapped. When they have taken steps that everybody thought was reasonable and sensible, the government has not made it possible to carry out. For instance, look at Amotekun, we citizens of the southwest persuaded the governors to create Amotekun, and it was to be a carefully selected young people who are well trained, well led, well guided, well commanded so that there handling of the conflicts with the Fulani marauders in the forest will be sophisticated , reasonable, humane. That is different from what doing what we were doing before. All our young people go to the bush and defend your father’s farms. It got to a point when we said wait a minute, we are Yoruba: all these young people we took to school when they were kindergarten children, grown up now, some of them taking their degrees from the best universities in the world, and you are asking them to run after Fulani marauders in the bush so let us create a unit properly led, guided, commanded that will do the task for us. But the federal government stepped in immediately to make it impossible to do. A few weeks ago, Governor of Ondo State, Rotimi Akeredolu ordered Fulanis in the forest of Ondo to get out, but the federal government said no, yet another part of federal government said they were not under his control, and so he cannot command them. So that is the situation. We have a situation where our governors, who are usually well educated can rule their people well, but they cannot rule their people well in Nigeria. That is why we want to take our Yoruba nation and run from Nigeria

MOMODU: Some pro-Buhari people have described you as an alarmist. Just recently, there was a release in which you said the new lockdown is not because of COVID but because of government wants to move arms and ammunition to the southern part of Nigeria. Do you have any concrete intelligence or evidence

AKINTOYE: We depend on precedence. In March last year, when the FG declared a lockdown, there was a sudden infiltration of Fulani youths into Yorubaland and Igboland. So we are operating on the knowledge of what has happened before. We believe very strongly that what is being attempted to open the door for the major infiltration of northern militia men with sophisticated weapons into the south. That’s what a vast majority of Yoruba people believe.

MOMODU: There are too many scary rumours flying right left and centre. Do you truly believe that the president of Nigeria will voluntarily set fire to a country he leads by supporting militants and bandits

AKINTOYE: I don’t know what he will set fire to, but I know he has destroyed Nigeria

MOMODU: Can’t you give him the benefit of the doubt as to may be he is not aware of what is going on in Nigeria

AKINTOYE: I don’t think he deserve the benefit of doubt

MOMODU: If you meet President Buhari today, what would you tell him

AKINTOYE: I will tell him Mr President, we elected you to rule over all of us, but you have not been ruling over all of us; you have been installing Fulani government in Abuja, and have given Fulani control over every critical area of government. More over, your kinsmen are all over killing, maiming, destroying, raping and kidnapping and you have not done anything to stop them. I believe you have the influence, not only the federal power but ethnic influence; these are your own people. If you had come out when this thing was starting, and people were shouting and crying, and said all these Fulani things must stop. I believe that we would have got somewhere.

I’ve always said that if I were the president of this country, and this thing is happening, I wouldn’t plead my presidential power, but my kinship power and tell them you cannot do it. I believe Buhari could have done the same, he never did it. For many months, he did nothing; he kept quiet. Finally, he began to say ridiculous things like telling governor Ortoms after hundreds of his people have been killed, to go back and make friends with the killers, saying they are your brothers. What type of thing is that? He went abroad and made the announcement that all Africans are free to come to Nigeria without papers at a time when killings were taking place. And people want the rest of us to give him the benefit of the doubt? Nikita Crusoe of Russia once said ‘every living thing wants to live’, and we want to live, we are living things and we desire to live. The demand upon us to give him the benefit of the doubt is not fair.

MOMODU: What advice would you give the number two citizen, Yemi Osinbajo at this time.

AKINTOYE: Yes, there was a time it was rumoured that they were going to remove him, or he was going to get to get tired and leave. I was one of those who advised him to stick in there, let them remove him and then we shall see. He should remain there; let them remove him and then, there will be hell to play with.

MOMODU: What will be your prediction to the presidential ambition of persons like Bola Tinubu and others.

AKINTOYE: Under normal circumstances, I will gladly support any of these men. I believe they are capable, and can rule Nigeria. I followed closely as Tinubu gathered the Yoruba political groups in 2013/2014, mobilised resources from the south west, created the alliance that won the presidency, national assembly and others. I appreciated his zeal and gut at the time. I don’t have a doubt in my mind that Tinubu or any other of the younger men will rule Nigeria excellently, but the times are not normal. We Yoruba people have come to a point at which we say we don’t want election in their land under the auspices of Nigeria. That is a duty, but we hope that our leading political leaders will understand that, and spread the wishes. If they want to rule a country, there will be a Yoruba country soon, and they could rule it. That is the situation!