By Eric Elezuo

The series of soul searching, mind bungling and highly incisive interviews with Chief Dele momodu took a dramatic turn when former Senator representing Kaduna central, Comrade Shehu Sani took the hot seat, and made deep down revelations.

In the no holds barred conversation, which also featured former Presidential aide, Reuben Abati, the comrade senator took a swipe at the ineptitude of President Muhammadu Buhari and the APC administration, speaking boldly on salient issues affecting the country including insecurity, restructuring, fulanisation and a whole lot more.

We bring you all the details; the minute by minute details:

REUBEN ABATI: This is in celebration of Bashorun Dele Momodu’s 61st birthday, and in the last three days, we have been having this leadership and governance series, focusing on Nigeria, the future of Nigeria, and key national issues. And as I have said in previous episodes, you have chosen a great way, a very worthy manner of celebrating your 61st birthday, wrapping it around ideas and how ideas are important to national progress. and how ideas and exchange of views, conversations, public opinion can move a country forward. At a principle and philosophical level, I think that this is very commendable. And in the last three days, you have chosen some of the key figures in the Nigerian history, and key figures in the contemporary process in Nigeria; Prof Banji Akintoye, leader of the Movement for Self Determination in Yorubaland, Femi Falana SAN, a great intellectual and public advocate for civil liberty with a long history in that direction. You have chosen also Olisa Agbakoba SAN, Founder of the Civil Liberty Organisation (CLO), Afronet, even in The Gambia, and one of the leading lawyers in human rights litigation and maritime law in Nigeria. And this evening, you have brought for us another great Nigerian from the northern part of Nigeria, Senator Shehu Sani.

Shehu Sani is very well known to all Nigerians as a freedom fighter, activist, human rights defender, as a man who believes in freedom, justice and peace and who has the courage of his conviction, and who does not look at your ethnicity or the colour of your skin before he speaks his mind.

The last time I met Shehu Sani was somewhere in Owerri, Imo State where he and I have been invited to speak to an Igbo audience about the future of Nigeria and what needs to be done. And I was surprised, shocked at the level of reception that he got from Igbo people, and they didn’t look at the colour of his skin, or the language he spoke. It didn’t matter to them where he came from. They saw in him a patriot, a Nigerian, and he did not disappoint them, and we had a very good session on that day. And since then, I have also seen that Igbo and Yoruba people have been inviting him to come and speak on Nigeria, and this prove one example which is there are good people everywhere. It is not about ethnicity, its a about the truth, commitment, and courage.

So this evening, we have the privilege of having a man who is a bridge builder, and if you are in doubt, you only need to check his twitter account in the last one hour. He alluded to things I noticed in his account where he has over 1.6 million followers from every part of the world. And this evening alone, he has tried to defend the rights of trade unions in Kaduna State who were fighting for their rights. From there, he moved to talk about the protest in Osogbo by a Yoruba group led by Sunday Igboho, and he was defending the unity of Nigeria. In other words, he is not a nihilist. He is a man who believes in Nigeria. Like the gentlemen we had earlier, Agbakoba SAN, Falana SAN and Akintoye; they believe Nigeria is not working but do not believe in the dismemberment of Nigeria. Now, we have Sani; I do not know what he would  say, but about an hour ago, he was saying that the unity of Nigeria is very important. Yesterday, one of the issues that came up was self engagement of Nigeria, and this evening , on his twitter page, Sani was also saying that whatever they say about constitutional amendment, people must show interest, you must engage with your country, you must show interest in how your country is governed. So we seen this week a stream, an emerging conversation with people from different parts of Nigeria all trying to create an elite consensus that is missing. This evening also as I read Senator Shehu Sani twitter handle, he was also talking about Femi Adesina comparing the Buhari administration to Manchester City and the English Premier league. He was saying no, compare it to the Nigerian premier league, focus on what is happening in Nigeria; let us focus on our realities. So this is the kind of gentleman that we have before us this evening. I have tried his tweets and his followers of over 1.6 million as a way of introducing him. This is a detribalised Nigerian; a man who believes in progress, fairness, equity and justice.

He was in 1967, October 29 in Tudun Wada in Kaduna state. He attended Government Day Secondary School in Niger State, and from there, he went to Government Science Secondary School in Kangara, also in Niger state. You will recall students from Kangara were abducted recently. He was one of those persons who carried the banner, not necessarily because he is an alumnus, but I guess because in any other circumstance, he would do the same for Nigerians under distress. He later attended Kaduna Polytechnic, and Kadpoly as you remember is one of the famous institutions in Nigeria at a time for the radical politics of the students of that generation. This was at a time when the intellectual space in that part of Northern Nigeria was led by the likes of Bala Usman, Balarabe Musa, Abubakar Rimi; people who promoted radical politics; and Aminu Kano and also Peoples Redemption Party, Northern Elements Progressive Union and Shehu Sani fitted into that tradition. In ABU at the time, they had what they called The Bala Brought Ups. He ended up with an HND. He was in the forefront of the process there. He was Social Director of the Students Union, he was leader of the Africa’s Students Union. He got nurtured at Kadpoly.

Even then, his process began at home; his father, who worked within the media, a publisher and a printer was also part of that ideological process. So Shehu Sani was brought up on a heavy dose of Maxist, Leninist literature because his kept a very rich library. I think that’s a lesson for many parents. I see many middle class homes today without a library; the only thing you see are fanciful cars, and parents trying to impress their children with money. But Shehu Sani was a product of a tradition tradition where parents tried to instill values in their children and teach them how to read. So he grew up in a place where there was a library, and I can see a library behind Bashorun Dele Momodu. I think every home of anybody who considers himself a serious minded person should have a library because it can affect your children. Here you have Senator Shehu Sani, who grew up reading, in an intellectual environment. His father was not Aliko Dangote of the time nor Femi Otedola of the time. They had an intellectual environment that nurtured him.

He also had a mother, who was a community leader, and I guess all of that had moulded him into the man that he became.

Now what kind of man did he become? He became a fighter for justice freedom, beyond Kadpoly. He became a member of the Campaign for Democracy in Nigeria with Olisa Agbakoba, Beko Ransome Kuti, Femi Falana and others. But he paid dearly for it. The Babangida administration threw him into detention. He was in detention in various parts of the country. When the Abacha government took over, he was again arrested, detained and sentenced to life imprisonment, and what was his offence; for being a member of the group called Campaign for Democracy. And what was Campaign for Democracy’s offence; they wanted the actualisation of the June 12, 1993 election won by Chief MKO Abiola. Shehu Sani was one of the leading light in the north that stood up without looking at ethnicity. They stood for principle and said June 12 must be actualised. He was sentenced to life imprisonment but eventually all of that was commuted and he released. And beyond that period, he has remained in the struggle and he tried to join the Alliance for Democracy; he lost the election. He joined the Congress for Progressive Change, he lost election. But he kept at it. In 2015, he won the election on the platform of the All Progressives Congress. He was a senator of the Federal Republic of Nigeria from 2015 to 2019, but then as a member of the senate and as the chairman of Public Desk Committee and also as chairman of another committee, he was very vocal and very critical.. he refused to accept the chicanery that was going on in his own constituency in Kaduna central or in the entire Kaduna state, where he had to pay a price for that. In 2019, all the the forces that be; the godfathers that he refused to worship made sure that they got him out of power. They threw everything of the state at him including accusing him of a certain $25, 000 that nobody has been able to prove.

Here, we have before us ladies and gentleman, a man of courage, a man of conviction, a man who has struggled through every effort to devalue him, to discredit him; he remains out there in the forefront. The only part of it, which I think Bashorun Momodu would ask, him is how he also suddenly added to his various credentials, his state chairman’s credentials because they said a snake swallowed money at JAMB, he went there and told them he will help them to look for the snake that swallowed the money. Above all, Senator Shehu Sani is also a writer; I have read many of his books. He is also a poet; he has done two books of poetry. He has also written two plays. He is very prolific, and I hold that sometime in the future, some people would focus on his intellectual productivity as a writer, and Bashorun Momodu who has a Masters in English Literature will be interested in. He has written on corruption, dictatorship and several other subjects of concern, not just in Nigeria but also in Africa. So I’m excited having our dear brother, in the struggle, Senator Shehu Sani joining us this evening. And on behalf of all of you, and on behalf Dele Momodu, who will be throwing a party tomorrow I hope, after all these intellectual talk since Tuesday. I welcome you Senator Shehu Sani. My brother, It’s good to see you!

SHEHU SANI: Thank you for having me and thank you for that very long introduction. I appreciate that and I hope we have a very good session

MOMODU: Thank you Senator Shehu Sani, thank you Dr. Rueben Abati Ph.D. It is not for fun that I invited you to do the introductions, and you have don justice to them. We live in a country where people no longer know their history, and I am sure a lot of people hear about Shehu Sani, but they don’t know where he is coming from. They think he just joined politics and became a senator, but I can tell you that this is not an ‘owanbe’, or a feel good senator, but I can tell you he is a man who worked very hard. We have been friends for years and I remember that he was the first person to alert me. I got a call from you years back; you alerted me about this Boko Haram menace. You wanted me to intervene at that time, but unfortunately, the government was not ready to listen to people like us because in the beginning, we believed it was something we must curtail before it boomerang, unfortunately, it has exploded in our faces. And as they say, only God can rescue us now. So it is good to have you finally on this platform. The other three discussants we have had, Prof Akintoye – Point of correction; Prof Akintoye has given up on Nigeria. The other two, Agbakoba and Falana still believe Nigeria can be rescued but with a caveat that if care is not taken, and the principal actors, what we call dramatis personae in Literature, if they don’t take care now, it might be forced to go the route, which might be very unfortunate.

I have an idea of your beliefs, but I’m not going to preempt that. I am only going to ask you questions like I asked all the other people. I am going to start from politics. When you joined CPC, what were your ideals?

SHEHU SANI: Well, thank you very much for having me, and I wish you a happy birthday in advance, and I wish I will be part of that celebration, but unfortunately, we are stuck here in Kaduna. Actually, when we came out of prison in 1998, we were divided in the sense that some people believe we should join the transition programme of Abdulsalami Abubakar, and there are those of the school of thought who feel that the democratic experiment will not last. Those who think the later carried the day, and we hesitated from joining the political process. And then, an opportunity came for those forces who did not fight for democracy to simply occupy space, capture power and dominate the political platform for which we are still struggling to get out in the last decade. After the wrong decision we took in 1999, I decided that I should participate and contest elections. In the north, I first joined the Alliance for Democracy, which was like an offshoot of NADECO after the struggle, and then later  because the party did not show strong presence in the north, I joined the CPC on the advise of my people that it was the party to join to get elected. I joined and contested and lost that election. I moved on to contest again under APC when there was a merger, and I was happy that merger happened because it became a platform to link up with my comrades in the south west and other parts of the country. We worked together, and I won the 2015 election.

So, my journey to CPC was more or less studying the political atmosphere of my own part of the Nigeria, and seeing where it will be easier to vote because naturally, if you are aspiring for political position, you also not just think about yourself but you have to look at the perception, thinking and direction of the those people you are going to represent, and where they are moving to, and then you try to synergise. That is simply what informed my decision to join the CPC at that time.

MOMODU:  Now, I doubt if there is any northerner as popular as Major General Muhammadu Buhari (Retd). What was the fascination of the north for General Buhari

SHEHU SANI: Well, this is still a subject of research in the sense that before Buhari, there was an Aminu Kano that had a similar fanatical following if not more than that of Buhari. But I think what has endeared Buhari in the heart of the north was first all i can say there was an incident that happened in the early period of Chief Olusegun Obasanjo’s administration when the Sharia issue became a controversial national issue, and there was a discussion at the Council of States, and Buhari came up during a BBC interview with the thinking that the people have the right to establish their own Sharia system. And from that time, like a fire was lit in the hearts of people, and the people now see in the north someone who can at least speak for them. Secondly, he had been seen to be one of the most honest leaders because we had series of leaders who were accused of looting the country. And being a man, who lived over four decades in Kaduna, and people have seen his prudent lifestyle and he has mixed up with people and also speak about issues concerning people, and that also added to the fanaticism of Buhari.

The third aspect of it was that people were disenchanted with the political establishment at that time, and they needed a leader to rally round whom they believe is not within that system because there were other leaders in the north like Umaru Musa Yar’dua, but you would have expected people to be fanatical about Yar’dua and not Buhari but they choose Buhari because they see him as an uncompromising figure, one who will stand up to the establishment and represent their passion, their thinking so they moved along that line, supporting him, voting him and anybody who identified with him. But all along, he could not be president on his own until he align himself with forces from the southwest, and that now provided an opportunity for him to be president. So I can say the attraction has been the event that happened in the early 20s, and then his own lifestyle and the belief that he is a new Aminu Kano to the people of the north.

MOMODU: I once came to Kano for the (first) wedding of Aliko Dangote’s daughter, and General Buhari drove into Kano that day, and everything came to a close. Even governors could not enter the mosque cause the poor people, almajiri were everywhere. To move became a problem. He was seen as the champion of the poor. So could you say in your honest opinion that he has been able to justify the love they have for him

SHEHU SANI: Well, you see, a lot of people have found it strange that the man they so much loved, were prepared for, and indeed died for because hundreds of people were killed because him as a result of what came up after the elections, and Buhari’s popularity has risen to that of worship that anyone heard criiticing him as seen as committing a sacrilege in the north. But as time goes on, the Buhari that they knew as the opposition figure became a different Buhari in power. For the reasons that so many things he had simplistic idea like you solve corruption, and everything will be solved, if you love people, everything will be done, 2 plus 2 is equal to four. In power, he is confronted with the realities of Nigeria, and many things have contributed now to the fact that he has fastly lost that popularity. That fanaticism has faded as a result of a number of factors: 1. The fact that Buhari either underestimated the problems of Nigeria or overrated his capacity and that of his team to address the problems of Nigeria. And now, when he found himself in the position of power, he now found himself associating with those very forces that he spent the 12 years of his life fighting. For example, if you say the PDP destroyed for 16 years, you will find out that from the governors of APC are all from PDP, most the ministers in his cabinet are from PDP, most of the strategies of his government are from PDP except from Tinubu and others from the southwest. In the governors of the north that are APC today, it is only that of Borno and Yobe that are never from PDP. So he finds himself having to work with the ‘devils’ that he spent his life fighting. And then you can see the gallery of contradictions as to what he said before he become the president and what he is doing as the president. For example, he had asked; he want to know who is subsidising who, and then you find his government subsidising more than any other government in the history of this country. You find him questioning issues that have to do corruption, and then you find it prevalent in his government. And you find him questioning the value of the naira as an opposition figure, and you have seen that the naira has slipped down to the lowest of low in this country in his own government. You find him raising issues of human rights as opposition figure and then his government violating the fundamental rights of citizens sometimes suppressing protests with force. So many things which he dreamt of fighting and dreamt of realising as a leader; he finds himself toeing the line perhaps worse than ever.

Shehu Sani

He once raised issues of how previous governments have been unable to address security issues like Boko Haram, now under his government, you see Boko Haram still fighting, you see herdsmen, you see banditry, you see crises in all the parts of the country. This view of him, and so many things are idealistic view of him, simplistic of him. They never saw him as a elected leader; they saw him as a messiah, and he also presented himself as a magician. So all these things come together, and then he now faces the reality of power and they found out that he was not a magician they though he was, he is not the messiah that can save them and solve all problems, with a snap of the finger, they therefore withdrew their fanaticism about him and now are scrutinising him like any other leader in our history.

MOMODU: You have one of the few people I believe to tell us about the genesis and metamorphosis of Boko Haram in Nigeria. Please give us your view

SHEHU SANI: Well, if you remember at a time so many years when I called you. I called you at a time when that issue was at its infancy where it was local grievances about a preacher who appeared and was been arrested, persecuted. And then the trigger of Boko Haram has to do with the killing of the leader of that group. I think the group moved from simply an extremist organisation to a terror group against the security apparachik of the state, and then after that, they graduated further to attacking anything that has to do with establishment, government and with the state. And then time, it could have still been curtailed but the very moment that group evolved into one that has a global connection to international terror organisation then it becomes difficult; it simply becomes an affiliate. What even compounds everything is that not just Boko Haram that is a terror group to the north; you have the ISWAP which is a splinter from Boko Haram and then you have the Alsarudeen which another sector of Boko Haram that has had their own command. Now we have also bandits operating in the northwest with such ferocity and lethal force. So, this is a brief narration on the evolution of that group on what it has become today. It is easier to dialogue with the group when it was a national organisation, terror group with local grievances and issues, but now that it has become a branch of a bigger organisation outside of Nigeria, that becomes more difficult.

MOMODU: If you were Buhari, what would you do right now

SHEHU SANI: On what particular issue because I raised a lot of issues now

MOMODU: On the insecurity issue because that is the biggest issue we have right now

SHEHU SANI: Well, first of all, if I am the president, I will for solutions outside my own political party because one of the problems they have today is the way they operate this government. Before they listen to you, and reason with some of the positions and ideas you give them, you must come from their own political side. If you are not there. If you are a Donald Duke that has an idea, they don’t have to listen to you; if you are a Femi Falana that has an idea, they don’t want to listen to you, if you are Reuben Abati, they don’t have to listen to you. They want somebody from their own side who will give them advice whether it is right or wrong. So that is the problem. You have to see the problem as a national problem. If an Igbo and Yoruba man or anyone from any political party, even if he is a critic and can make his contribution, you simply have to listen to him. So, they have to solve that problem because they have that mentality. Secondly, what need to be done is that you have to divide these groups into two; those that are prepared to return to society and live in peace with the rest of our citizens, should be accommodated, and those that are not prepared for that, we should be ready to battle them and crush them. Now, what is important here is the use of technology; technology is very important. If you are moving from here to Abuja; it is about 150/60 kilometres – there are 37 villages there. Why don’t you have at least a drone station there to oversee what is happening in Niger and Kaduna States. There is none. We are still operating a system of checkpoint where you are stopped and made to open the booth of your car and flash torchlights in your face. How can you use such ideas to fight terrorism. That is very much impossible to do. Secondly, he made a mistake for by keeping service chiefs for so many years who had been unable to address the system, and they entrench themselves in the belief they are there to protect you and the government, and they have not solved anything.

So, address the problem by the use of technology; address the problem by removing nepotism in the system where we have a certain section of the country dominating the security apparatus of the state, and for that reason, whether they are competent or not; the problem will naturally continue to linger. The third aspect is to ensure that those arms of the state involved in this war are well funded and taken care of . The minister of finance recently told us that she had funded the military to the tune of N1.08 trillion in 24 or 8 months. And the same military have been going to the president to collect they called special approvals. Now with all these monies pumped into our security and defence apparatus and we are unable to fight and crush bandits herdsmen and terrorists in country, which shows that throwing money has not been the solution. Despite all that have been put in place, the soldiers on the ground have been crying and protesting about lack of weapons and lack of equipment to fight. And some of them have been imprisoned for protesting. So, corruption has been entrenched in the security apparatus which needs to be addressed.

Buhari must use technology; 21st battle must be confronted with 21st century technology. Secondly, there must be diversification and ensure that security apparatus, the heads of those agencies do not represent an ethnic or religious group, but are ones that are here to defend Nigeria as a whole. And the third aspect of it has to with we must ensure that funds that released to security apparatuses are actually used for the purchase of weapons and equipment for them to be used in our battle.

MOMODU: There has been this conspiracy theory over the years even before President Buhari came to power, that there is an Islamisation agenda. How do you respond to that

SHEHU SANI: Well, first of all, I’m not aware of the existence of such agenda. But if those who are raising that issue are basing their fact on what they have seen on the ground. If you have a president or a government to one section of the country, certainly, anyone who make that submission can actually use that as an evidence. But if the level of insecurity is used as the basis to make that submission; I can say it’s wrong because the Fulani bandits are not only constituting a deadly force in the southern parts of Nigeria, but they are also doing worse in the north. If actually they are a force for Ismalisation of Fulanisation, they would not have constituted themselves into a dangerous force for us, in the northwest particularly. In Kaduna today, as we are conducting this interview today, I cannot attempt to go outskirts of the town anytime from six; I will end up in the hands of kidnappers. So, thousands of our villagers have sold their farms and homes to pay ransom. The bandits have become authority unto themselves. If actually there is a Fulanisation agenda, I think it can be supported by the fact that his appointment has been lopsided but not that there is an army that is determined to ensure that such happens. In as much as herdsmen constitute a serious issue for people in the southeast and southwest, they are also a problem to people in Benue, Plateau, Zamfara, Katsina and Kaduna state.

MOMODU: Now, do you think education could have helped the north. You have produced majority of leaders in nigeria at the presidential level. why is it so difficult to educate the people. In the last six years for example, don’t you think that if Buhari has invested interest in the education of the almajiris as President tried to do. Do you think this would have made some difference

SHEHU SANI: well, as far as I am concerned, northern leaders have failed the north over the years. They have not utilised the opportunity in power to educate, industrialise and develop the region. Many of them have turned power as a personal property to dominate the poor people, the talakawas in the north, and enrich themselves. You read on paper that oil blocs have been allocated to most people in the north, and then you ask yourself where has that oil bloc been used for the development of the north. i hear of a former minister, who is late, who is reported to have had an oil bloc. But he never had a foundation for helping anybody. He never impacted on the life anyone. So you can see that part of the attraction in 1993 election why people voted for Abiola. Abiola moved to the north impacting a lot of people, and they could see it practically. So, as far as I am concerned, I can say very well that power has not been helpful to people in northern part of Nigeria, and it has not helped in addressing the issue of poverty, disease, destitution, penury, and all sorts of social vices that we could have used to address the problems in our country. They have weaponised poverty. They love that ‘Rankadede’ mentality where one person has money and poor people line up outside his house and worship him for his money. And that has led to the increase of poverty in northern Nigeria which is unfortunate.

MOMODU: The way you speak truth to power, do you see many northern leaders speaking truth to themselves and accepting this blame, that we cannot blame others for our problems

SHEHU SANI:  Well, in the last few years, it was impossible for northern leader to speak truth to power, because speaking truth to power at that time means speaking truth to the Buhari administration. It is impossible because you will be lynched by common people who literarily worship him. But now, as the reality has set in, and as people are seeing the stupidity of this kind of zombie followership, many northern leaders are now speaking out. Afterall, the Northern Elders forum, the Arewa Consultative Forum in the beginning of this government and the early 2015 were in support of Buhari, and everything he does is right and in order, but now you see leaders who are yesterday sycophantic, compliant, submissive and subservient to everything the government does or says are now saying no, things are not going well. I think that is something which I appreciate particularly with the southwest; when Ernest Shonekan was brought in as a replacement to Abiola; he is a man from Abeokuta, an egbaman, but the Yoruba could have rallied round him after all Abiola is also a Yoruba man, but they said no! The governors at that time (SDP) refused to even attend to his invitation. That was a very good thing to do. Secondly, when Obasanjo came back to office, any protest, any strike action against that government is more complied in the southwest than any part of Nigeria. So you can see how people can stand up against their own. It is something other parts of Nigeria do not just know, they have to learn. The southsouth did not even do that. To the south south, Jonathan commits no fault as far as they are concerned, and it is the same thing that is happening in the north today

But so many things have changed the mentality of northerners to know that it doesn’t matter if the man in power is from your ethnic group or religion; he can still fail you. And for you to get what you deserve, you need to stand up and fight for it. This is my little contribution as far as this issue is concerned.

MOMODU: What makes you so confident to speak the way you speak because it is like blasphemy

SHEHU SANI:  For anyone who knows our history, we have not started speaking truth to power in 2021 or 2020. nowadays, it is not unusual when you criticise government, it is either they say because you have not been given contract or you lost election or because they are not carrying you along or because you wanted position, and you were not given. There must be something that will be attached to you or if you speak, it is said because the man in power is not your partyman or bringing you along. But for anybody who knows who we are and our own history, and it is not difficult nowadays, you just need to google. We spoke truth to power during military regime when it was dangerous, fierce, harmful and delirious for one to do. Under Babangida, we spoke truth to power, under Abacha, we spoke truth to power and to Obasanjo and subsequent governments. We will continue to that as long as we are alive. Wherever you have a Pharaoh, you will also have a Moses. I believe that people should have that courage to speak. Even Buhari was once a critic, who had spoken out spoken out against the excessiveness and excesses of different governments in the past. What is surprising to people is that he is a person differently from the one they use to know.

What we are doing is in line with our ideology and principle. For those us who come from the NEPU, PRP pedigree know very well that we have spoken truth to power in line of Mallam Aminu Kano

MOMODU: The APC Federal Government has refused to interact or interface with the people of Nigeria, and this has led to serious frustration on the part of the people. So how come you are so uncomfortable with people who are saying if we can’t dialogue, we can’t restructure, we can’t have a peaceful referendum, let us go. Why do you think they cannot go

SHEHU SANI: As far as I am concerned, for people of my own political thinking and ideology. I cannot imagine a country where I will lose friends like you, like Falana because if I am in trouble now, the first person that will come to my mind is Falana, and so many of you down there. So, each time you want to go, people like me will make sure the paper never see the light of the day. We want you to be with us. We can’t afford to get a visa to go to Ibadan. As far as I’m concerned, people like me believe in the unity of this country. I’m not just a believer in the unity of this country, I’m a pan-Africanist, who thinks of an Africa without the colonial boundaries, and now carving it further. But there are lots of things that need to be done. You can’t hold a country together – it is not the national flag nor the national anthem that hold the country together; it is justice. If you have a new leadership that nationalistic and patriotic and also addressing the contentious problem that confronts Nigerian state, I believe the agitation for secession will naturally fizzle out. I am always talking directly to even those who want to see. You want divorce, but there should no permission, we still have to be together. We are in for it, for better for worse. And that is my own submission. And I believe those of us who are progressives in northern Nigeria like late Balarabe Musa, Abubakar Umar, with whom I spoke with several minutes ago, and several of us will not wish to live in a country that is carved out. That is why we will say let us fight a government that is bad, let remove a government that is bad. That is my submission.

MOMODU: But again don’t you think this government has made the agitation for Biafra, Yoruba nation most compelling. when people don’t have a choice, what do you want them to do. They are powerless now to influence Buhari; he don’t even talk so nobody knows his state of mind. All you hear his media aides coming to talk to Nigerians, and it is like there is already a template; 1000 people die, your president will not show his face, no empathy. Don’t you feel worried that it will get to a time when people can no longer take it.

SHEHU SANI: Well, perhaps if I am in the other parts of the country, I would think like that from your own part of the country. As far as I am concerned; two people whether it is Nnamdi Kanu or Sunday Igboho; if you check their history, they use to be strong nationalist, who believes in Nigeria. We need to ask ourselves at what point such people started disbelieving in Nigeria, and then see the issues and see how we can address them. I believe that why agitation for to break this country has become fierce and evident now is as a result of some of these factors. One is the pervasive level of insecurity in the country where you have people being slaughtered and government appears helpless. People will say that the best way is to divorce. And secondly, the fact that government has by itself erroneously acquired the image of being nepotistic in terms of tilting and inclining towards a section of the country certainly that will be a contributing factor.

The next one has to do with the failure of the government and disconnecting between the leaders and the people. And as far as I’m concerned, if Nigerians unite, vote those that they don’t want out, and have a government that will open a platform for dialogue, restructure this country and address those issues. Those things will naturally fizzle out. So, I’m a believer in the unity of the country, and those who want to secede, rather than fight them, we still continue to appeal to them to stay, and let us work things out by working the government out and getting those who can bring this nation back to its own lost glory

MOMODU: I’m happy you mentioned the word ‘restructuring’. What are the things in you opinion should be restructured in Nigeria

SHEHU SANI: If you ask 20 Nigerians about their votes on restructuring, they will give you 20 answers because we still have not articulated what we want about restructuring. Let us start with merge our states; will Rivers and Bayelsa merge? Will Kaduna and Katsina merge again? Will Ekiti and Ondo go back to where they began? How many of the political leaders today who have become godfathers and demigods in their own narrow territories will agree to dissolve their kingdoms for a larger house. That’s a question. And because restructuring is what we need in this country. If you don’t restructure this country, we will simply continue to be in crisis. But not just restructuring; the 36 governors of Nigeria, both north and south simply are disagreeing to the autonomy of the judiciary, disagreeing to the autonomy of the local government and state house of assembly. Then you ask me if a simple as that it has become difficult for our political leaders to achieve or to implement, what becomes of the bigger picture or steps to be to restructure this country. So I believe restructuring should be done in three phases 1. Political Restructuring – this will give every geo-political zone to produce a leader in this country 2. Economic Restructuring – which will give every geo-political zone to harness their economy, and contribute to the central government 3. Social and Cultural Restructuring – those parts of the country that outlaws beer should not take VAT from beer; those part of the country that do not eat cow should not allow open grazing in their part of the country

When you have political, economic and social restructuring done in phases – the point is that all these ideas have been articulated in various and constitutional conferences in our history. We only to bring out all those books that have been laying dusty in our cupboards, bring them out and implement them in phases in other to save this country. When you have a structural problem, it is not about the walls and paints, it is about the beams and the pillars, and once you have structural defects in the beams and the pillars, the building is likely to collapse. So, restructuring is ensuring that those beams and pillars that are having issues are now redressed

MOMODU: Now, it is common to see members of the armed forces either complaining publicly, recording videos or even deserting the field of battle. And some people are saying it is wrong for you to go and bring a soldier from Katsina to come and operate in Imo or Ebonyi because he is a Nigerian who may have imbibed the prejudices in Nigeria. How do you respond to the saying now let us have state or regional security or defence so that people of a particular location will know how to handle security problems in those places

SHEHU SANI: The point is that if you is that regional security outfit is important in the sense that you have local forces that are familiar with the terrain they are operating in and will make it easier for them to combat crime and also ensure law and order is respected and complied with. And that is the argument for state police, and our own experience is that the way our governors handle state independent electoral commission (SIECOM). Contesting for for a local government election and you are not a member of the ruling party is complete waste of time. The head of SIECOM is appointed by the governor. SIECOM is called independent, but it is almost like a parastatal of the governor. He declares 100 per cent victory for their members. The police force that is a state police will be populated by supporters of the state governor, and sometimes becoming an armed wing of the ruling party in the state. There are governors in this country, the way they run their states, you can imagine if they have in control of them a state police. I have a governor, who is a friend of mine. When he was in office, he was an ardent supporter of state police. We argued with him many times, and he will tell me I need a police I could control to combat crimes, to ensure restoration of law and order and others. The last one year, I met him in a train from Abuja to Kaduna, and for two hours, we discussed. he was being chased by the incumbent governor of his state. He said if this man has control of state police, he would have finished him completely.

Why do our state governors want state police, but they don’t want an independent judiciary. You want to control the police and arrest people, but you don’t want an independent judiciary and legislature. Now you see that anyone who posts or tweets anything critical of the state governor will be at the mercy of the state police. That does not mean the Federal Police are not engaged in this one. But every commissioner of police knows that in as much as he is still the commissioner of the police in a state, you can still petition his actions to the Inspector General of Police and the police commission that is outside of that state. It restrains their capacity to inflict danger and persecute people, but when you have some governors in this country to control the police, tyranny will be so unleashed to the point that you cannot say or do anything in that state without being a victim of the state police. As far as I am concerned, I am in support of such a regional outfit that will address the problems of security, but we need to be careful about creating tyranny in our state because most of these police will move away from fighting criminals to fighting opposition elements in the state.

MOMODU: We cannot have the opportunity of speaking to you talking a little bit about religion. What is the role has religion has played in the political debacle of Nigeria. When you talk about sharia; most of those who shout sharia in the north only use it for the poor. The wealthy class, what I call members of the ‘privilegensia’ are never caught up in the sharia law

SHEHU SANI: Well, there has always been sharia law in Islam. Sharia is a way of life of Muslims. For example, if a father or husband passes on, the sharia has a tablet or template on how the inheritance will be shared, so you don’t argue with it, you simply go to the sharia and share it as it is. But now, the most dangerous thing is the political sharia not the real islamic sharia itself, where now sharia is used for political ends which involves capitalising on the sensitivity of it, in order to gather support or retain yourself in the position or use it against political elements. So, you will ask yourself why are the Yoruba Muslims not fanatical about the sharia like the Hausa Muslims. It is because it is not used for political purposes in the southwestern parts of Nigeria. But here, it is used by some people for their own political ends and that is all. But for every Muslim, sharia is his own way of life.

MOMODU: Now, do you agree that the presidential system of government that we copied from America is too expensive, and if so, what should be the way forward because it seems we are practicing capitalism without capital

SHEHU SANI: Well, if we are talking about monarchy, which worked in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and Spain and Netherlands and UK. They are all monarchies, and monarchy is working. Even in UAE. If you talk of mixture of parliamentary and presidential democracy, like France – it works there. If you talk of pure presidential system of government like in USA, it is working there. It is also working in Argentina and Brazil. The system may not actually be the problem but ourselves. We will keep on practicing all the systems of this world, but as long as we have problems with ourselves, it is still not going to work. As far as I’m concerned since you situated the presidential system on the issue of cost and economy, I can see that there are a number of things we need to do, one is we need to ask ourselves because we are not living the reality of the situation we are in Nigeria today. Why do we need two parliaments; the Senate and the House of Reps? The motions in the House of Representatives is still the motions in Senate. The difference between the two houses is that senate confirms the appointments of Mr President or disapprove of his appointments, and the House of Reps doesn’t do that. Apart from that whatever they do in the senate, they also do it in the House of Reps. So, we can cut that by having a unicameral assembly. And then secondly, why do we need 36 states as a nation when we are even finding it difficult to live within ourselves. If you tell Sokoto, Zamfara and Kebbi to return to Sokoto State, it will be a big problem. In the same way if you tell Kogi to return to Benue and Kwara states, it will be a problem. If you tell Ekiti and Osun states to dissolve back to their former state, you will have problems. We have to make sacrifices; the resources of this country cannot take the kind of political structures we have in this country. So, cutting cost of governance is very important, and it appears that the government in power has not been able to achieve that. If we cut the cost of governance, and try to address all these issues in phases, I think we will be cutting out coat to our resources.

MOMODU: Would you support a full secularity of Nigeria

SHEHU SANI: Secularity is ambiguous when it comes to multi-religious society because we a country of Muslims and Christians and of people who are atheist and traditional believers. We can’t have a state religion in Nigeria, and any attempt by anybody who tries to do that will face a very serious war. Nigeria is better off as a secular state that is multi-religious

MOMODU: But a situation where a particular region is mentioned so many times in the constitution or the national currency (with some Arabic words), don’t you think that suggests a lack of secularity

SHEHU SANI: Well, for the Arabic that is in the naira; we forgot to tell ourselves that Arabs were Christians before they became Muslims. That is simply an alphabet they use, and people also taught that all Arabs are Moslems and all Jews are Christians, which is wrong. There are more Christians among Arabs and the Moslems among Jews. So what we see in the alphabets are simply alphabets that will make it easier. But if it is controversial in the very sense; it is not a religion. You can write fifty naira in Hebrew and Chinese alphabets. The issue of mention of one religion more than the other can be done through constitutional amendment. I have seen the National Assembly saying they are moving round the country to amend the country, and all the comments seen under that pronouncements have been insults, abuse and indifference. You can’t simply fold your hands and allow the politicians to write the constitution for you when you are already opposed to the one written by the military. And if you don’t show interest in constitutional amendment, they are most likely to insert something which you may not like, or remove something which you like or alter something which at the end of the day becomes law, after it has been passed by the Senate and House of Reps. So, we did to know what they are trying to amend, alter or remove so we address that by a theory that such issues of one religion mentioned many times is clearly being addressed in the constitution of the country

MOMODU: Before you go; the issue of zoning – again, there is a conspiracy theory that the north does not want to relinquish power. Do think it will fair for the north to retain power after Buhari

SHEHU SANI: Well, you see, if we are going to go by the rules of democracy; by population wise, the north can continue to dominate the political space for a very long time. But if you look at out history and our crisis and the need for equity, there is no other way to preserve this union and to also give confidence to other parts of the country that they belong to this union than by rotating political power. We can’t live in self denial . Let all the parts of the country produce the leaders of this country. Then if at the end of the day, we have circulated power everywhere, we can decide to say, we can do away with it. But unfortunately, after Shagari, we were supposed to have an Alex Ekwueme or Abiola, but that was disrupted. Each time there is an attempt to transfer power, something comes in. Obasanjo came and transferred power to the North and Umaru died, and Jonathan came, and for Jonathan to contest again, it became a problem. I believe that we should entrench this in our constitution, and it will solve the problems of agitation for separation. If power will be allowed to rotate in all parts of the geopolitical zones of this nation. And for now, after Buhari, power will be most appropriate to go down to the south, and it will be left for the people of the south to decide has been much excluded. And that I believe is going to be a problem for the people of the south as far as now is concerned.

MOMODU: Don’t you think it’s a fallacy to say that the north can continue to dominate power perpetually, and I will tell you my view. I have written about it before; In Search of Mathematicians. The mathematics of politics and power in Nigeria to me suggests that the only way the north can dominate is if the south allows it to dominate. It is impossible for you to win a presidential election if you don’t lock down four out of six regions in the country. As popular as Buhari was, he could not win until he was able to cross to the southwest, get some support in the south. So, if the southern leaders choose to be vice president perpetually then that would be possible, but if the south can work together and get into the north central, it will be almost impossible for the north to dominate power perpetually. Do you agree

SHEHU SANI: Well, let me tell you this…the only way for power to move south in the first place having the unity of the people of the south and we must accept the fact that there are two dominant political parties. If one party decides to shift power to the south and the other decides not to, and put it in the north, it is going to be difficult for that power to move to the south. If you look at the demography in Nigeria, and the apathy of voters in the south, fanaticism of voters in the north – a typical woman from Zamfara or Kano is prepared to spend the whole night on the queue to vote, and how is that feasible in some parts of Nigeria. But if we are going to preserve this country, the south first of all have to make a collective demand through their political parties, and say power should shift. If the elements in APC say power should shift to the south, they should not speak in Delta, they should also go to the villa and say it because if you go to Delta and make a resolution, and then when you go to villa to see Buhari, and the media stop you for an interview, then you start talking from both sides of the mouth, you know nobody is going to take you seriously. So we can have a rotation of power when the two political parties have agreed that power should move to that section of the country. But when you are going to have a candidate from the north, and a candidate from the south, that cannot be achieved.

MOMODU: So, you are saying the two mainstream political parties must be compelled to shift to the south

SHEHU SANI: Of course, and must be compelled by the elements heading those parties and the problem will be not those agitating for the power to go south but those who are ready to settle for the vice president position. And there are plenty in the south. So those vice presidential mentality in that part of the south will be the greatest obstacle to the rotation of power

MOMODU: Finally, lets end it with the economy. It is important we discuss the economy of Nigeria part of the of the problem is that Nigeria is broke. We have over borrowed, and we are wasting it; you are doing a rail line from Nigeria to Niger Republic; you are doing all sorts of crazy things all over the place. What’s your attitude to the way the way is being managed at the moment, and what do you think should be done

SHEHU SANI: Well, I sometimes ask myself because I know that over a year ago, an economic team was established by the President. I wonder where they are now because nothing much has been heard of them. And you even ask yourself whether there is an economic direction for this administration at all. We are simply borrowing; borrowing from Saudi Arabia; borrowing from Brazil, China, World Bank, Islamic Development Bank. This is all we have been doing, and we are still doing what we said we will not do; over dependence on oil revenue; look at our debt, it has surge and climbed to such astronomical level, and look at our foreign reserve, it is still within 30, 32, 33 – moving down south. As far as I’m concerned, the kind of economic team under Obasanjo’s administration or Yar’dua is virtually absent as far as this government is concerned. And you can see that those previous administrations have superstars in the rank of people they can call professionals. But here, it is more of a government of loyalists. And when it is about loyalty, you can see so many things will be sacrificed because somebody is loyal. We wanted a president who will appoint people without minding where they are coming from; appoint people without minding their political parties. At his last part of life; his last opportunity to lead this country, he should be a father figure to all Nigerians, bring everyone on board, to save this country and to prosper this country

MOMODU: Thank you Senator Shehu Sani. I cannot thank you enough for this opportunity. I will request my brother, my friend, Dr Reuben Abati to please come in, and give us a summary of this interaction. Thank you Senator, and regards to your family

REUBEN ABATI: Bashorun Dele Momodu, I will like to join you in congratulating Senator Shehu Sani; he has not disappointed at all, and he has to helped to extend the frontiers of the conversation. New issues have come up today, and I want to congratulate you as the host on how you managed in a very dexterous manner to open new vistas of the conversation.

Since this conversation started, three days ago, this is the first time we would have somebody who would go directly to the issue of presidency of President Buhari in terms of expectations at a personal and political leadership level. You asked him why he decided to join the CPC, which was the party of the president, and he said it was a pragmatic decision because at the time that he did (moving from AD to CPC), it was what his constituency wanted, and in any case may be that’s what motivate politicians. You saked him what accounts for President Buhari’s popularity in the north, and he said in some way, Buahri replaced the Aminu Kano myth, became the champion of the talakawas, particularly when he chose to defend and support the sharia system. Also, he was seen as somebody who was very honest, and that in that regard, people thought he was a very honest man. He was also seen as an uncompromising figure, and a man who led the interest of the poor people of the north. But in sum total of Shehu Sani’s submission, although Buhari got the support of the ordinary peopel of the north, and also the southwest particularly without which he would not have won the election, that he thinks President Buhari has lost touch in terms of being the champion of the poor. And although his popularity was at the level of worship and criticizing him in the north was seen as sacrilegious, but the moment he got into power, Buhari has emerged as a different man, and as a result, the fanaticism with which he came to power in the north has vanished. Well, it’s not only in the north, in other parts of the country also, that has happened. And he thinks Buhari is overwhelmed that whatever devils that he fought are the same devils that have taken over his government. And the president is confronted with contradictions that he has not been able to deal with, and the principal contradiction will seem to be in area of security challenges.

He also think that the president who came across as a messiah, and magician is no longer the magician or the messiah that people in the north and in other parts of the country think he was. This is the very first time we would have someone accusing the president frontally. He even went as far as accusing the president of the failure of governance and the disconnection with the people, and also nepotism.

You also asked something on insecurity, and that is the biggest problem that we have now, and that Boko Haram is part of a bigger problem; part of a bigger organisation, and the obligation of government is to deal with it.

Following up on that Bashorun Momodu, you asked him what gives him the confidence to speak the way he does, and he made the point that anybody that criticise the government these days is accused of looking for contract, having lost an election, or that you don’t think the government of the day is taking you along, and he found his own commitment in that direction. He said his commitment is to speak truth to power, and this is not the first time he’s been speaking truth to power. So the courage to speak, he thinks, is part of the way of dealing with the challenge of a president, who in his view, has become a different person.

You asked him also about this whole argument about self determination. Why is it that the APC has refused to interface and interact with the people of Nigeria, and why should the government and the ruling party be concerned about some people who just want to go, but he said he does not believe in secession; he does not believe in a smaller Nigeria. We have had questions on this programmes, two of them at least, who says that they don’t want Nigeria to be dismembered. He said he believes in the unity of Nigeria. And also, he is a pan-Africanist and believes in the unity of Africa beyond colonial boundaries. But the rail over question is that the people are talking about divorce; he said he is opposed to it. he said people asking for divorce because they are not happy about the marriage. That same marriage metaphor came up ‘yesterday’ when Olisa Agbakoba SAN was quoting the late Bola Ige. Senator Shehu Sani extended it saying Sunday Igboho and Nnamdi Kanu were strong supporters of one Nigeria. So, at what point did they and others like them changed. It’s because of nepotism, insecurity, failure of governance.

But Shehu Sani said he believes in the future of this country because he does not want to lose his friends.He said that the issue is not about the national flag fundamentally, but about justice. Sop how do we achieve justice in this country? He had a number of recommendation. He said the unity of the south is important in that regard. If the south want power shift then there must be a collective decision in terms of power shift rather than slogans. he also talked about a unicameral legislature because we are running a government that is over bloated. He also talked about the 36 states. This is the kind of conversation that he wants to see. He also argues that Nigeria is a secular state. He also argued that every part of Nigeria should produce a leader of this country, and that he has no objection about power going south after Buhari.

You asked him about the Arabic in the currency, and he said it is just alphabets. I don’t know whether many people will agree with hi. There are many Nigerians who think there are many extractions, Islamic extractions dominating the Nigerian space. Then, restructuring was another big issue that he addressed, and that is one of the issues that we have been addressing since the beginning of this conversation, and he talked specifically and deconstructed it . Earlier, Olisa Agbakoba SAN was saying restructuring means just about anything as people have reduced it to the level of a cliche. Although he talked about technical devolution of powers, justice, equity and all of that. But today, we have Comrade Shehu Sani breaking it down for us in terms of political, economic and socio-cultural restructuring which would have to be done in phases, and that the implementation of that restructuring is the beams and the pillars that we need, and that restructuring along the lines of beams and pillars would be the way to make the country work.

He also talk about Biafra and secession, and he thinks that many Nigerians either from the southeast, the north or the southwest will not talk about secession if there is justice in this country.

So, for me, these are the takeaways, and as I have said we can continue to have conversations around them. He talked about how the people of the southwest stood against their own, and how in Nigeria, there should sense of objectivity. He cited example of the 1993 process, and I think that is one major takeaway. All the people are saying, oh my brother must be there, my region must produce the president – Comrade Sani raised point, saying you can have a man from your region who will still failed you where rights are concerned. What is important is that every Nigerian must stand to defend their rights, and that should not be surprising coming from a man, who has devoted his entire career and life to the defence of human rights, civil liberty, civil liberty without looking at the colour of your heritage or where you are from.

Finally, I will to congratulate Senator Comrade Shehu Sani, although I would have loved Bashorun Momodu to ask him about his political future. He left the APC when he could not return as the senator representing for Kaduna central. He’s gone back to the Aminu Kano fold. What’s the future for him; where is he going next? If his people tell him to join the PDP, will he do so? If they compel him as he said; as he made clear that he is a pragmatic, will he join the APC back – because in Nigerian politics, we see people going this way, and going that way. What decision has he taken in that regard? Take away for him, as we have taken many things away from him. We want to thank you Shehu Sani for your contributions. Over to you Bashorun Dele Momodu

MOMODU: I’m so impressed that Senator Shehu Sani speaks so openly, so objectively and so boldly. He has always earned my respect, and I can say that tonight he has consolidated it, and I want to thank him very sincerely.